Instagram growth advice you probably don’t want to hear with Helen Perry

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:: 00:02

We're taught from a young age, not be too much, not take up too much space, not be loud, not be ourselves, not be disrupted. Do you ever worry what people will think about what you're posting on social media? That you'll be negatively judged by friends, families, and maybe even other business owners? If so, you are definitely not alone.

:: 00:24

And it's something that can keep people stuck, particularly women. It's also a topic that can be a bit divisive. I think my feeling was is that what we're being influenced to do as women in order to kill these an algorithm? Because for me, I got no business message out of that, but maybe for other people, maybe they would have got the let's be ourselves.

:: 00:44

Let's take up this space. Let's dance. Let's feel the joy. In this episode of the courageous content podcast, you'll hear from Helen Perry and online business teacher, Instagram specialist, and host of the brilliant, just bloody post-it podcast. The claim is in the name. If somebody just one person sits and watch your life will cost, they are gonna be so much more connected to you than they would have been before that it could just be worth it.

:: 01:11

Yeah. I'm proud to say that Helen is a former client and she's also a keynote speaker at my annual content marketing event. Courageous content live, which is happening in Newcastle on November the first and second site. This is a chance to find out more about Helen, how she's grown and monetized her following on Instagram and launched one of the UK top business and marketing podcast.

:: 01:33

Plus you'll find out what you can learn from her at courageous content live. So Helen, your brand is just bloody pasting. What's it all about? Just bloody post-it is a phrase that I sort of stumbled upon that people got, they understood it. And it seemed to answer a lot of the questions that I was getting from the kind of clients that I'm working with around.

:: 01:57

Should I share this? Should I do that? Am I going to make a fool of myself if I do this and do you think I have to do video? And you know, often the answer is not something I can give you. It's at the other end of you trying some things and putting some stuff out there and gathering the data and the feedback that you get and working out that way,

:: 02:17

what your kind of ideal client customer audience wants. So just put it out there, just bloody posted. That's where it comes from. But of course it's easy for, I think me and you to say that to people, cause I've said exactly the same thing so many times, because we both come from your, from a broadcast journalism backgrounds, I'm a print journalist.

:: 02:37

So that's important getting feedback, maybe not always getting the feedback that we hoped for. And I guess that does give us a bit of a natural advantage. What about those people who are so Greensward, they've not had the experience that we've had? What would you say to them? I would say that, you know, fair days, I think that's really fair comment.

:: 02:56

Actually. I did come to content, creating and audience building with the sort of skill set that I picked up at work. And I worked for most of my career as journalist at BBC radio one. And they have a really key role to play within the organizational structure of the BBC and that they attract younger audiences, or that is the point of radio.

:: 03:17

One is to serve younger audiences. And that is really key for the BBC because it helps them to continue to secure government funding for what they do. If they are only increasingly like reaching older and older and older people, it becomes less relevant. And then the case for them continuing to be publicly funded is weaker. So they put loads of effort into audience research and understanding that younger age group,

:: 03:45

like 16 to 24 year olds and what they really want. What's really important to them, what their lives are really like. And I think working in that environment gave me an understanding of that kind of market research and having a target audience and how important it is that everything that you put out there is with them in mind, like which stories are most interesting to them,

:: 04:05

what kind of language do they really use? So that's the other piece that I've brought to content creating is that I'm always trying to write for my people, my target audience in a way that will be relatable to them and about things that are interesting to them and, you know, alongside that, I just bloody post-it. I just share things. And then what I'm guessing about people is either confirmed or,

:: 04:28

or not confirmed. Yeah, that's really interesting. But I remember meeting you for the first time. I think in-person, it was a little beat up that I was running in wedding and I remember being surprised actually by how giving you had all this amazing BBC experience. How under confident, if you like, I can't believe I'm saying this I'm this like on this phone call.

:: 04:53

So the first time I should've warned you shouldn't have, but almost how under-confident you were about your business, which was just getting going. Then I knew a bit of things, given the fact you had all this amazing experience and I remember being like, Helen, you just, just go for it, just do this, just do that. So I do feel like you have been there,

:: 05:09

you have had that kind of uncertainty that kind of am I doing the right thing? I don't know what you're going to say. Now you might be like, no, that's, that is, it's interesting to go to step back a few years and think about how, you know, you might have been. I would definitely say that my business journey has been about kind of rediscovering my own confidence,

:: 05:29

you know, between what you know, but what we're not talking about is between me being a journalist in my twenties and early thirties, I then had like six or seven years off at home. And children are pretty harsh appraisers of your work and your scale. And also it's a hell of a lot of time in your own, in your own head.

:: 05:47

And then I was just going back out there and I was feeling my way. And also something you do not learn at the BBC is how to do business. Like I had no idea how to do business. You know, your department's pretty well-funded and I wasn't management either. I was a working journalist. I didn't have to think about money. I didn't have to think about making money.

:: 06:03

So for me, I do still, I suppose I do still feel under confident, but, and again, it's a good thing to remember when you're looking at other people that might've been doing, what you'd like to do a few years down. The line that that confidence they've got is because they'd been getting positive feedback or things have been working for them over a number of years.

:: 06:21

And your confidence builds with that. And I suppose since that lunch, which was

a really good idea, actually, Jan just like hosting a really, it was like really accessible lunch where people could come and meet you. And you know, it was just like a couple of hours of your time, but it was, it was a great bit of kind of like customer loyalty,

:: 06:37

building that lunch, just an opportunity to meet your people, I suppose, for you as well. But just remember that people become more confident over time with their business and you can't expect to be where they are when you're just starting out. Yeah. That's an interesting observation, John, I guess you forget quite quickly where you once were with you. What,

:: 06:56

:: 07:14

just, that's what people want from you right now. Just yeah. And just learn what you can and then you can pivot into what you want to do. Yeah. Stephanie resisting niching. I think, I think that whole, the whole idea of niche was probably something that I found difficult to really get hold of for a couple of years that you've got to be for someone you've got to be an expert in something and just being kind of like generally a nice person or somebody that seems like quite good at saying this is not,

:: 07:42

it's not enough. That's not a business. Yeah, definitely. And I think you did sort of take that forward and even, and start to focus on Instagram and it's like you zoomed in and now you're zooming out again. It can be the way to get you where you want to be is, you know, focusing on that thing that people want from you at the time.

:: 07:56

And then you can broaden again, if you like, which is what I've watched you do. But I only made that point because although you do have all that full cost experience, I do think there was a certain amount of empathy that you had with your audience because you felt that uncertainty, if you like. I mean, absolutely. And in terms of like posting on social media,

:: 08:17

like in my life, there was probably a photograph of me graduating university and then a photograph of me getting married and then a photograph when I had the kids and then like nothing until I started this business. If you go back to the beginning of my Instagram account, I used to like post pictures that had like half my face in it or like just my mouth or my hands or something because I struggled with surely nobody wants to see my face.

:: 08:42

I'm a 40 year old woman. I said, well, at the time, like you, you know, what are the people that live around here gonna think about my Instagram account? And so I've definitely been through all of those struggles that my audience are going through whenever coming to social media, in order to start building an audience and sell their work,

:: 09:00

you know, I've been through that. I've put my first video up. I've been on stories for the first time on Instagram, whatever it might be. I've definitely been through that, but oh man, maybe you lose touch with it. It's really hard. As a teacher, I often find myself going into high with people. I don't, if you find the same thing,

:: 09:16

you know, where you're like, you've forgotten the beginning of the first things that you've learned. And I, you know, whenever I'm talking to people about them, you know, deciding their own kind of online teaching products or something, it's like, you know, remember the very first things you learn and the very first things people need to know how to do,

:: 09:31

because you've almost forgotten that you learnt them. So thank you for bringing me back in touch with, I experienced the same as you did, you know, the same uncertainty, the same, what will people think? Like how will they react? What if they don't like it? I think it gives you maybe a bit more resilience if you've been used to working in that environment.

:: 09:50

And you're used to working with content as well. Like you said about understanding, I think we, an advantage where you might have is that we intrinsically understand that you can't just deliver up things that people aren't interested in. You can't keep delivering stuff that people aren't interested in. You need to go and find out. And maybe that made us more able to kind of stick with it and not expect instant results because we know that it's,

:: 10:15

it's the process. It's a journey. It takes research. I think maybe that's the part of it. That is the advantage possibly. And enjoying it. I like creating stuff. I like, I love creating podcasts because that's much like what I used to do. You know, radio was my first love and in some ways it still really is the thing I love the most.

:: 10:35

I like to write. I like to take photos. I mean, that helps a lot. If you can find a type of content that you can not get enjoyment out of doing, and that comes to practice definitely as well. Like, you know, give it a chart. But if you can find the type that is your least resistant to like do that,

:: 10:53

where are there any things you can think back that helped you to get the coverage to go from posting path, your face yeah. Jeanette, I really wants to make it work. And I could see that if you look at the kind of accounts or content that you're connecting with or the people that you're buying things from, you probably not just seeing their hands on the internet,

:: 11:19

you'll probably eat there. They write in a way that is honest and compelling to you, or often you'll be connecting with their face and their words and their spoken words. And I just around video, I read a lot of data about how compelling, you know, video is. And I could see as soon as I started sharing it, that you can get across in a,

:: 11:40

in a quick video, what would take a long blog posts to achieve? And all that data is being born out. Now, Instagram is now really a video first platform. And you know, I just, just thought, I'd give it a Darwin when I did post one people like them. And then, you know, that helps us next. Then you posted another one.

:: 11:58

Yeah, exactly. And, but I've noticed that you do things in your videos. Like you always do that little wave at the beginning and well, I might stop back. So I was going through my own reels and every single one of them goes, hello, hello. Hello? And I was like, oh no, that's actually really irritating when you look.

:: 12:15

I really like that. You know, when somebody starts, there's somebody I follow on Tik TOK. And she always says, oh, where were you, darling? And to her, it probably feels irritating. But when it comes to content, I think actually repetition. That's why, that's why TV and radio shows start in the same way. Isn't it?

:: 12:33

Yeah. Yeah. Agree that as people do like many hours, they do like repetition. They like to see the same things. They liked to see you sitting on the same chair and we get bored of ourselves way before anybody else gets bored of seeing us, you know? And unless she asks you about, what's worked for your clients. So whenever I go to an event to speak and there's a Q and a people always ask me the question I always get is I'm afraid of video.

:: 12:54

What do you recommend? So like you I'm like just make a video and post it. There really is no other way. However, as we've talked about, we're bringing different experiences that might make that slightly easier for us understanding how to tell a story that, that kind of thing. And it's just maybe being a little bit more competent because we've had to put ourselves out there,

:: 13:15

but what's works with clients now imagining that there isn't one formula because all clients are different, but are there any things that you've noticed have worked with clients that kind of just get them to go for it and be brave? Often it will be working with somebody who's kind of giving them the permission and the nudge. So I think it's probably the fact that I've gone,

:: 13:35

just do it. I often feel when I'm running a course or a group or something like that, that really my main job is to just sort of hold this space for somebody to focus in on something, do something that they've been putting off for ages that they'd actually quite like to do often, but they need somebody to sort of say, this is okay.

:: 13:54

You know, just give it, I'm telling you to do it, do it this week, and then it's done. But often what else do I find where it's just taking a deep breath and pushing something slightly further than you have been prepared to do before. And that could be sending the second email in one day about the deadline for, you know,

:: 14:12

doors closing on something that people would have been really scared to do in the past and actually ending up with 10 more bookings as a result of doing it, or just responding to something that's current at the moment, sharing a post about something that's going on right now and sharing what you actually think about it and getting the best engagement that you've ever got on any post.

:: 14:31

So quite often it's just about notching yourself further out of your comfort zone every so often and seeing better results come in. Is that a bit no. And this is the problem with that, isn't it? Because I always answer that question the same way you just have to post video. The only way to get better at video is to, is to create video.

:: 14:49

Only one thing that I have found that has helped with my clients is giving them templates and scripts for Instagram or textbook. And I don't mean like say this, but fill in the gap stuff because I think sometimes what can hold people back is just not knowing what to say. How long does the video need to be? As long as people then use that as a springboard and then like,

:: 15:09

right, okay. I've used Janet's templates to create four videos. And now I feel I can start to freestyle a bit more, I think, yeah, you're creating a little safety net for them when they're not sure. And it's just enough to help not to smoke, but I've got this social media post in my mind that I still haven't written up and I've got it in the notes on my phone,

:: 15:26

which is like good reasons to not do video and bad reasons to not do video. And like my good reason to not do video would be like, oh, you're at the, marketing's working so brilliantly. Well that you don't need to worry about doing video or your phone is broken. And those are the two good reasons to not do it. But if the reason you're not doing it,

:: 15:43

it's all this stuff around. Oh, I'm not sure what to say. And all surely nobody wants to see me and you know, just like call out your own bullshit. Could it be really helpful to your clients to see you on video in which case for them, you know? Yeah. And do you feel that women are more prone to say new things and not just having a go and putting themselves out there?

:: 16:07

Yeah. We work with lots of women and we are far more inclined to question our own expertise to ask ourselves, what have I really got to add to this? Or there are other people that are doing what I do. Surely we don't need to hear another voice. This is years. And he is of kind of people pleasing. She has confidence issues.

:: 16:27

You know, we're taught from a young age. I was talking to somebody about this yesterday to not be too much, not take up too much space, not be loud, not be ourselves, not be disrupted. So it's a big job for me. So help people get over that stuff because it does run very deep. But I start by telling people that there are always lots of people that do what we do.

:: 16:49

And you might just be the right person to deliver that service to your particular group of people. So if every accountant or every estate agent went, oh gosh, there's already another accountant up the road then, you know, I mean, we wouldn't have enough accountants, so there is space for you, but it's hard. And yeah, I know it's hard,

:: 17:07

especially for women. Yeah. And do you have a handle on why women seem to find it so hard? Is there anything that you've learned working with your clients? It tends to be a bit older, like not digital natives. So they haven't like, you know, my daughter and her friends grown up popping themselves on Snapchat every day or putting themselves out on Tik TOK since they were 10 or 11 years old.

:: 17:31

So it's not a natural thing for us, but you know, mainly it's just around who am I to do this and would people really want to hear from me? And what if I get rejected if I go out there and nobody likes it, this fear of, you know, that Janine is a real fear of Instagram lives, that people fear that nobody will watch what you can go live on LinkedIn these days,

:: 17:51

can't you and take stock. And it's just like, if somebody says to you, well, so balk, if nobody's seen it, who cares or if nobody's seen it, you've still done it. You've had a practice run. Somebody might watch the recording back later and do you know what somebody, just one person sits and watch your live broadcast. They are going to be so much more connected to you than they would have been before that it could just be worth it.

:: 18:17

And that one person could be really important to your business. So, and do you think around things like Instagram reels, for example, I remember listening to a podcast that you did about this, but how influenced are people by the messages that are coming both from the online space and externally, say for example, I made an Instagram real about how harmful it can be for online entrepreneurs to knock women pointing at words on written.

:: 18:44

Remember there was a little phase when people were like really mocking women. And I made this real where I was like, well, maybe that for somebody is the only way that they feel that they can do it to start off with, because it's the easiest way for them to kind of get started. And maybe they want to do it because they like it,

:: 19:02

which is fine. But actually I think sometimes there's unhelpful messages. It's easy. If you're a confident online entrepreneur who has no problem jumping on camera to mock the ways that people are using video. Oh, if I see another video like that, or I see another woman pointing at me also, oh, dancing on where I was like, I listened to,

:: 19:19

I think it was a podcast episode, feels that isn't to about, you know, you don't have to dance on rails or whatever, and you absolutely don't. And I thought you made some really good points on that podcast and I will link to it in the show notes, but at the same time, for those people who do want to dance or do trends or whatever,

:: 19:35

:: 19:51

I think I had a moment of rage about an Instagram, real that I'd seen with a female entrepreneur in a pair of hot pants doing a dance, but for her app, you're absolutely right where your hot pants do your dance. I think my feeling was is that what we're being influenced to do as women in order to please an algorithm? Because for me,

:: 20:16

I got no business message out of that, but maybe for other people, maybe they would have got the let's be ourselves. Let's be, let's take up this space. Let's dance. Let's feel the joy. Somebody else might have got that from it, from me. I got nothing useful, but you're absolutely right. Everybody weighing in and criticizing what other women and it's always women are being criticized for doing just feeds into this whole fear that people have got about actually wanting to put themselves out there because it could help them run a business that fulfills their potential and earnings goals and allows them to be independent and do the things they want to with their life.

:: 20:53

And whatever way you do that with your pointing or dancing or not is fine by me. Yeah, exactly. And I know we briefly talked about this before we, we got on to this interview, but what's your feeling around, in general, what it's like out there in the online space at the moment and what it feels like to be a female entrepreneur trying to build a business,

:: 21:18

it can feel quite confusing because there's all these different messages. And then there's all the beautiful people bouncing about in their hot pants. It's like, where do you fit in? And you know, people on beaches and speed boats and, and, oh my God here, having said, I'm not going to judge. I'm just going to judge. I,

:: 21:36

I, I'm not into that stuff. I'm not into the private jet content for other people. Again, that could be absolutely the spark of inspiration that they need. Do you know what I'm trying to lean into as my business matures is I am trying to really stay in touch with the parts of my online work that are mine, to keep, that seem to actually bring measurable results.

:: 21:59

And that would be my email marketing list. My podcast, my websites, my repeat customers. I'm really trying to not get distracted by kind of feeding an algorithm somewhere. You do not need to do any of that stuff to grow an online business. There are people doing it in all kinds of different ways. There are people using tech talk and a really straightforward,

:: 22:22

enjoyable, fun way. I really love that platform, even though I'm not on it, but it's just constantly trying to not get distracted by vanity metrics and dopamine hits and all of that kind of thing. It's hard, you know, and I'm a proper grown-up now, but it's difficult to just keep in touch with good people and not be always looking over someone's shoulder to the next follower or the next viral real or whatever it might be that you can see and could be really triggering when other people seem to be doing very well.

:: 22:51

You know, what's really happening in your business. Is there really money in your bank account? I'm trying to keep hold of those priorities. Does that answer the question? Definitely. And where does your podcast fit into the rest of your business? What inspired you to start a podcast? Yeah, I mean, it's an obvious choice for me because I used to do radio broadcasting and I had wanted to do one for a long time,

:: 23:14

but I know it's the time and financial commitment to do a podcast. It's also a slow burn. And I still I'm really at the beginning of my journey in terms of understanding how to promote and grow a podcast. What I know is a good podcast, but I'm not quite sure how to really grow it, or in fact whether that's necessary or I just allow it to be a slow burn.

:: 23:35

I know that in the American market and American content, marketers are way ahead of us, John. I don't know if you'd agree with that. You know, that podcasting is just huge over there. So you've got to look at what all those guys are doing and think probably should have a podcast. And it just has in terms of, you know,

:: 23:50

job satisfaction, having conversations like this are awesome. And it's allowed me to really strengthen some contacts with people that, you know, I've been on podcasts with, you know, they then become closer friends. The feedback you get from podcasts is nothing like the feedback you get from any other kind of content. If you can sit and talk to somebody for half an hour in their ear and they're listening to you,

:: 24:09

you can just form a much deeper connection with them. I love listening to podcasts. I love making my podcast. It's, it's a hard one. Cause how do you say it directly feed back into your business? Do you have a way of measuring that Janet? Well, we do use trackable links for some things and even things like that, which are code.

:: 24:25

So you can see, for example, if you use specific voucher codes for specific products, you can see who's buying. I have a friend who has a very, very small podcast and much, much smaller than mine or yours. And she makes tons more sales or measurable sales. You could have a podcast with 200 listeners, but if those 200 listeners are getting you the results that you need,

:: 24:46

like why worry about having a massive, big audience? And it's interesting. I don't know whether you've ever looked at the charitable marketing stats of short or podcasts these day, but I'm always quite, quite proudly like, oh, I worked with Helen Perry because I can't claim any, any credit for your podcast, but yours is a very popular podcast. Isn't it?

:: 25:02

And it's often up there in the top marketing podcasts for the UK, but yeah, which is pretty good right out of the gate. It's had its moments. I mean even how the podcast chart works is a bit of a mystery to me, but because it's a sort of constant rolling chart, isn't it? And it's had its peaks and you know,

:: 25:21

that's often around choosing your guest and you know, sometimes guests are awesome at sharing that they've been on your podcast and you know, sometimes that's, that's not something they do. And that's fine. I have no expectation around that, but I've invested in a, a producer, sees my producer. Hello. Soon as that story publishing is, is, you know,

:: 25:38

it makes it sound good. I think, you know, you get loyal listeners, don't you and they stick with you. And thank you for the tip on voucher codes. I've just scribbled that down in green pen on my notepad. Yeah. I think podcasting is, for me, it's the best way to build that relationship with people because you're like quite literally in someone's ear and they get to know you and they feel like they know you.

:: 25:58

And I've had this actually happened to me. I said, I was in St. Pancras station buying a cup of coffee at that very swanky pink place. I forget what it's called now. And someone, I knew it was a former client, but I hadn't seen her for years and years. She came over and said, oh my God, Janet.

:: 26:15

Hi. And it was her husband that recognized me because he recognized my voice ordering a coffee. How about that? You know, that, that just shows you how powerful it is. If someone's husbands say, isn't that an ADC, please poke costly, listen to, I mean, that says something and people do say, sometimes I'm on my second podcast now.

:: 26:34

And people, their children recognize my voice or partners. You know, it really is a powerful way to build that relationship with people. Isn't it? And yeah, and also the episodes, they just, you know, I just like it because, you know, you can invest such a long time in creating a lot of lovely Instagram posts or whatever it might be.

:: 26:50

And, and it's just gone, you know, even if it's awesome work, it's still gone. It doesn't have any lifespan, really. It doesn't come back, but you know, I'll get a message during the week about somebody who's listened to two podcasts that I created nine months ago and it's worthwhile investing your time and making them, I suppose. That's why I feel.

:: 27:08

Yeah. And another thing which would really underline that is that I had another podcast before the build your online audience podcast. And I am Denard about whether to start fresh with the courageous content podcast or whether to stay on the same RSS feed, which if you don't have a podcast, then don't worry about that. In the end, I decided I wanted a clean break,

:: 27:30

but the most annoying thing in the world is that every so often someone will discover their old podcast. Cause you know, it would seem silly to take it down, even though I've made a final podcast, even though I've now put on a cover that says Janet Murray has a new podcast, people will discover it, they'll download it. And then suddenly my old podcast we'll be shooting up the charts and sometimes overtaking my new pump.

:: 27:56

But again, it just shows that if, if people that content is still there and you know, I like to think people will we'll work it out eventually that it's an old podcast and that's really what I wanted to finish up with. So you started your business if you like on Instagram and building your audience there, but you were also building. So we had a blog didn't you and your ability,

:: 28:13

you'll be building your list. But having that focus it's sort of secures your business, isn't it? Because it gives you that content, that's evergreen content. That's going to be there for years to come. That's going to help people to find you. And as we all know, with social media, it can be taken from you any moment. And you've spent all of that time creating those Instagram videos and they might be brilliant.

:: 28:34

But actually if Instagram decides to take your account down or whatever, that could all be gone, but this is the way of really building a sustainable business because you've got content that people can find free for years to come. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and a lot of businesses have experienced Joel and a wake-up call with Instagram, you know, in the last six to nine months when the rules of the platform have changed and there's nothing we can do about it and just posting a picture now and Instagram often just,

:: 29:07

it doesn't work anymore. It's not interesting enough. It's not what the platform's about. Now. It doesn't hold your attention. And then you've got to decide whether you go with what now will work with the Instagram algorithm that she's creating shortfall video, or whether you just go, do you know what? I'm not up for this. So therefore I'm going to do my work somewhere else.

:: 29:26

And those are the only choices that you've got to make. There's no point in going know Instagram's not as good as it used to be. You know, it's not, it's not within our power to influence that we can only influence what we choose to do. So make choices, I suppose. That's why I was staying with. Yeah, absolutely. And it's brilliant.

:: 29:46

And I will suggest you post it podcast. Now we'll link to it in the show notes, we're going to hear more from Helen at super-agers content live because she is going to be one of our keynote speakers, but she's very, very exciting for me. And it's very exciting to be able to invite someone who I've worked with that I've watched them rise,

:: 30:03

:: 30:23

just get content out there. But a couple of things before we finish up, where can we find you? I think we probably, oh yeah. I, you can always buy, I hang out on Instagram a lot. So now I'm just Helen Perry there and Jan, I can't wait. Oh, like maybe I can write, I have a feeling already a little bit nervous about speaking at courageous content.

:: 30:43

How many people will be in the room? Well, it'd be about 200 5300 in the room and then it's being live-streamed as well. So Okie doke. All right. That's going to be a new challenge for me, but I can't wait. And I just can't wait to come up and hang out with people for a few days. It's going to be mega.

:: 31:01

Thank you for inviting me. Yeah. I'm really excited about it. And also how can people work with you? I don't run a membership as John's, as I run courses around Instagram and email marketing. If you pop pave, it's my website, just giggle Helen Perry. There are some waiting lists that you can sign up for that. We'll let you know when my bigger courses and workshops are happening,

:: 31:25

but if you get my newsletter, the switch, you will find out everything first and as a sign up form for that on my website as well. Brilliant. Thanks Helen. Thank you, Jen. So hope you found that useful. And if you'd like to hear more from Helen and meet her in person, then do you make sure you get your ticket for creative content?

:: 31:45

Live. Helen is one of around eight amazing keynote speakers. It's the only content marketing event of this size. That's happening in the UK in 2022 to my computer anyway, and you name it. We cover it. Email marketing, social media, marketing, Instagram, Tik TOK, Facebook, Pinterest, online course creation, funnels, podcasting, YouTube. If it has anything to do with growing your business online and content,

:: 32:15

you will get so much value from being at the event. Plus, you'll be first to get your hands on a copy of my 2023 Courageous Content planner and get your content plan created for the coming year. And given the events of the past few years, get the chance to spend a couple of days networking and brainstorming with other business owners in the fabulous city of Newcastle.

:: 32:37

You can grab a link to get your again and all Helen's links team. And if you enjoyed this episode, then do let both myself and Helen know on Instagram. I'm at Jan Murray, UK and Helen is Helen underscore Perry. There's a couple of underscores, but search up her name and you will find it.